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Post by Hatzegopteryx on Feb 17, 2014 17:21:02 GMT
Carnotaurus sastrei
Megaraptor namunhuaiquii
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Post by Allosaurus on Feb 17, 2014 17:24:27 GMT
megaraptor would take this easily. it has every advantage except speed which would not matter much.
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Post by Hatzegopteryx on Feb 17, 2014 17:57:15 GMT
It isn't easy for either of them. Both are the same size. Megaraptor namunhuaiquii has its arms, though they aren't instantly deadly do its foe, neither is its bite. On the other hand, Carnotaurus sastrei is known to ram, so it has a very resistent skull as a consequence of that. The latter is also much more robust, so due to its reduced rotational inertia it is not getting outflanked. That means that its head is the easiest target, so I wouldn't really say this is going to be "easy" in favour of Megaraptor namunhuaiquii.
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Feb 17, 2014 18:22:42 GMT
It isn't easy for either of them. Both are the same size. Megaraptor namunhuaiquii has its arms, though they aren't instantly deadly do its foe, neither is its bite. On the other hand, Carnotaurus sastrei is known to ram, so it has a very resistent skull as a consequence of that. The latter is also much more robust, so due to its reduced rotational inertia it is not getting outflanked. That means that its head is the easiest target, so I wouldn't really say this is going to be "easy" in favour of Megaraptor namunhuaiquii.No they're not the same size, Carnotaurus is ~8 metres and ~2 tons while Megaraptor is Allosaurus sized. Megaraptor has superior weaponry and a stronger bite force. Also: This particular Allosaurus specimen would win comfortably against Carnotaurus, so I doubt Megaraptor would have too much trouble.
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Post by Allosaurus on Feb 17, 2014 18:32:25 GMT
It isn't easy for either of them. Both are the same size. Megaraptor namunhuaiquii has its arms, though they aren't instantly deadly do its foe, neither is its bite. On the other hand, Carnotaurus sastrei is known to ram, so it has a very resistent skull as a consequence of that. The latter is also much more robust, so due to its reduced rotational inertia it is not getting outflanked. That means that its head is the easiest target, so I wouldn't really say this is going to be "easy" in favour of Megaraptor namunhuaiquii.do you have evidence that carnotaurus could ram with its horns? and since when was carno much more robust? it is also quite gracile. and why would megaraptor need to outflank carnotaurus to cause great damage? it can already target the neck. also, why are its claws or bite not "instantly deadly" to carno? megaraptor almost certainly has a deadly bite, since like all carnosaurs it has razor sharp teeth that can shred through flesh. and it's claws are huge and can deal severe damage. i don't really see any major advantages that carnotaurus has.
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Post by Hatzegopteryx on Feb 17, 2014 18:34:41 GMT
It isn't easy for either of them. Both are the same size. Megaraptor namunhuaiquii has its arms, though they aren't instantly deadly do its foe, neither is its bite. On the other hand, Carnotaurus sastrei is known to ram, so it has a very resistent skull as a consequence of that. The latter is also much more robust, so due to its reduced rotational inertia it is not getting outflanked. That means that its head is the easiest target, so I wouldn't really say this is going to be "easy" in favour of Megaraptor namunhuaiquii.No they're not the same size, Carnotaurus is ~8 metres and ~2 tons while Megaraptor is Allosaurus sized. Megaraptor has superior weaponry and a stronger bite force. Also: This particular Allosaurus specimen would win comfortably against Carnotaurus, so I doubt Megaraptor would have too much trouble. How are they not the same size? You totally forgot that mass = size ≠ length. Being one metre shorter only makes Carnotaurus sastrei far more robust. If they were at length parity... 2000*(9/8)³ = 2847.65625 At length parity, Carnotaurus sastrei is ~2.8 tonnes. That proves that it is far more robust, and robustness is a good factor. The biteforce here doesn't come in that handy, seeing as what Carnotaurus sastrei has is biteforce disadvantage, it has in gape. I have also explained how this is a very tough match, hence the fact Megaraptor namunhuaiquii won't be able to bite in an effective area with ease.
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Post by Allosaurus on Feb 17, 2014 18:39:50 GMT
No they're not the same size, Carnotaurus is ~8 metres and ~2 tons while Megaraptor is Allosaurus sized. Megaraptor has superior weaponry and a stronger bite force. Also: This particular Allosaurus specimen would win comfortably against Carnotaurus, so I doubt Megaraptor would have too much trouble. How are they not the same size? You totally forgot that mass = size ≠ length. Being one metre shorter only makes Carnotaurus sastrei far more robust. If they were at length parity... 2000*(9/8)³ = 2847.65625 At length parity, Carnotaurus sastrei is ~2.8 tonnes. That proves that it is far more robust, and robustness is a good factor. The biteforce here doesn't come in that handy, seeing as what Carnotaurus sastrei has is biteforce disadvantage, it has in gape. I have also explained how this is a very tough match, hence the fact Megaraptor namunhuaiquii won't be able to bite in an effective area with ease. carnotaurus may have had a wide gape but it has a tiny head for its size. there are still rather limited places where it could inflict a well-placed bite, and its teeth aren't really that deadly to a similar sized predator either. megaraptor has a bigger head and also has a wide gape, it imo shouldn't really have too much trouble inflicting a bite onto the carnotaurus's neck.
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Post by Hatzegopteryx on Feb 17, 2014 18:46:21 GMT
It isn't easy for either of them. Both are the same size. Megaraptor namunhuaiquii has its arms, though they aren't instantly deadly do its foe, neither is its bite. On the other hand, Carnotaurus sastrei is known to ram, so it has a very resistent skull as a consequence of that. The latter is also much more robust, so due to its reduced rotational inertia it is not getting outflanked. That means that its head is the easiest target, so I wouldn't really say this is going to be "easy" in favour of Megaraptor namunhuaiquii.do you have evidence that carnotaurus could ram with its horns? and since when was carno much more robust? it is also quite gracile. and why would megaraptor need to outflank carnotaurus to cause great damage? it can already target the neck. also, why are its claws or bite not "instantly deadly" to carno? megaraptor almost certainly has a deadly bite, since like all carnosaurs it has razor sharp teeth that can shred through flesh. and it's claws are huge and can deal severe damage. i don't really see any major advantages that carnotaurus has. That is common knowledge, I suggest looking it up - Majungasaurus crenatissimus and Carnotaurus sastrei are the only known theropods to ram. And no, I didn't say it used its horns. As I replied to MechaBaryonyx, Carnotaurus sastrei is far more robust. Seeing as both are at mass parity, the abelisaurid is ~1 metre shorter, which means it is far more robust. Scaling it isometrically, it is actually nearly one ton larger at length parity: 2000*(9/8)³ = 2847.65625 How are they going to kill it easily, exactly? As far as I am aware, this isn't a weight mismatch, so there isn't any kind of way that either of them will kill eachother with a single blow (seeing as similarly-sized animals, when engaged in fights, RARELY win under seconds). It does need to outflank it in order to bite its neck, seeing as its foe won't stay there and die. Since the quicker turner ( Carnotaurus sastrei) doesn't want to get outflanked, it isn't happening. That is due to the fact it has a more compact body, as I have proven above, which reduces its rotational inertia. They are face-to-face, and what target does Megaraptor namunhuaiquii have in reach? The skull. As it is common knowledge (seriously, you should know that), the ramming behaviour makes its skull more resistent, as it needs to be in order to not get wrecked while ramming. I can't really see any majour advantages EITHER of them have over eachother. This is very close, and I would suggest also to stop underrating Carnotaurus sastrei's biteforce, seeing as even the much smaller dromaeosaurid, Deinonychus antirrhopus, has a biteforce comparable to that of an american alligator of similar size.
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Post by Hatzegopteryx on Feb 17, 2014 18:48:12 GMT
How are they not the same size? You totally forgot that mass = size ≠ length. Being one metre shorter only makes Carnotaurus sastrei far more robust. If they were at length parity... 2000*(9/8)³ = 2847.65625 At length parity, Carnotaurus sastrei is ~2.8 tonnes. That proves that it is far more robust, and robustness is a good factor. The biteforce here doesn't come in that handy, seeing as what Carnotaurus sastrei has is biteforce disadvantage, it has in gape. I have also explained how this is a very tough match, hence the fact Megaraptor namunhuaiquii won't be able to bite in an effective area with ease. carnotaurus may have had a wide gape but it has a tiny head for its size. there are still rather limited places where it could inflict a well-placed bite, and its teeth aren't really that deadly to a similar sized predator either. megaraptor has a bigger head and also has a wide gape, it imo shouldn't really have too much trouble inflicting a bite onto the carnotaurus's neck. Read my latest reply to your post. The neck ISN'T an easy target, and neck biting behaviours are so overrated. Also, its smaller skull only means it has a stronger bite in PSI terms (seeing as it has a smaller pressure-applying area), also not to mention how its bite is only weak proportionally, but pretty strong all-in-all.
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Post by Hatzegopteryx on Feb 17, 2014 18:52:31 GMT
We have come to a level were Carnotaurus sastrei is terribly underrated, remember that its more compact body gives it less rotational inertia, and its lighter skull gives less weight far from the torso, giving it the ability to turn quickier than its foe, which due to its more enlongated body, is too heavy far from the torso. That means it requires more Newtons to turn its body, and considering they shouldn't really have too much difference in strength, the abelisaurid clearly has the turning agility advantage. Once shown that, its foe isn't able to outflank it, thus being more unable of biting its neck than what is expected. The head IS an easier target here, and if there is a fact about predators is that the easier target is usually, if not always, the desired target.
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Post by thesporerex on Feb 17, 2014 19:16:55 GMT
Megaraptor does win but I agree that this won't be easy. Also there is no evidence of Carnotaurus ramming its just an old idea due to it having horns.
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Post by Hatzegopteryx on Feb 17, 2014 19:19:51 GMT
Vobby did say it did as well as Majungasaurus crenatissimus, he said there was evidence, and since he is a very credible poster I don't really hink he made it up. I'll ask him for his source.
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Feb 17, 2014 19:24:17 GMT
No they're not the same size, Carnotaurus is ~8 metres and ~2 tons while Megaraptor is Allosaurus sized. Megaraptor has superior weaponry and a stronger bite force. Also: This particular Allosaurus specimen would win comfortably against Carnotaurus, so I doubt Megaraptor would have too much trouble. How are they not the same size? You totally forgot that mass = size ≠ length. Being one metre shorter only makes Carnotaurus sastrei far more robust. If they were at length parity... 2000*(9/8)³ = 2847.65625 At length parity, Carnotaurus sastrei is ~2.8 tonnes. That proves that it is far more robust, and robustness is a good factor. The biteforce here doesn't come in that handy, seeing as what Carnotaurus sastrei has is biteforce disadvantage, it has in gape. I have also explained how this is a very tough match, hence the fact Megaraptor namunhuaiquii won't be able to bite in an effective area with ease. They are not the same size, Megaraptor was above 2 tons if it is similar in size to Allosaurus (when scaled up isometrically from the 7.5 metre long 1.4 ton Big Al a 9 metre Allosaurus would be ~2.4 tons). And according to this paper Carnotaurus was less than 2 tons: "As mentioned above, a volumetric procedure yielded a body mass estimate of 1500 kg for C. sastrei (Mazzetta et al., 1998)" www.miketaylor.org.uk/tmp/papers/Mazzetta-et-al_04_SA-dino-body-size.pdf Whether it is entirely accurate or not, I don't know, but I can't imagine an 8 metre Carnotaurus being any larger than 2 tons. Carnotaurus was more robust and could use its head as a ram, but those advantages aren't really more important than bite efficiency (which Megaraptor has). Also Carnotaurus was designed for chasing down smaller dinosaurs so its weaponry will be less efficient than a similar sized carnosaur.
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Feb 17, 2014 19:25:33 GMT
Also its ironic how before you stated that bite force is the most important advantage in theropods fights and now you are saying it doesn't matter that much.
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Post by Allosaurus on Feb 17, 2014 19:27:30 GMT
do you have evidence that carnotaurus could ram with its horns? and since when was carno much more robust? it is also quite gracile. and why would megaraptor need to outflank carnotaurus to cause great damage? it can already target the neck. also, why are its claws or bite not "instantly deadly" to carno? megaraptor almost certainly has a deadly bite, since like all carnosaurs it has razor sharp teeth that can shred through flesh. and it's claws are huge and can deal severe damage. i don't really see any major advantages that carnotaurus has. That is common knowledge, I suggest looking it up - Majungasaurus crenatissimus and Carnotaurus sastrei are the only known theropods to ram. And no, I didn't say it used its horns. As I replied to MechaBaryonyx, Carnotaurus sastrei is far more robust. Seeing as both are at mass parity, the abelisaurid is ~1 metre shorter, which means it is far more robust. Scaling it isometrically, it is actually nearly one ton larger at length parity: 2000*(9/8)³ = 2847.65625 How are they going to kill it easily, exactly? As far as I am aware, this isn't a weight mismatch, so there isn't any kind of way that either of them will kill eachother with a single blow (seeing as similarly-sized animals, when engaged in fights, RARELY win under seconds). It does need to outflank it in order to bite its neck, seeing as its foe won't stay there and die. Since the quicker turner ( Carnotaurus sastrei) doesn't want to get outflanked, it isn't happening. That is due to the fact it has a more compact body, as I have proven above, which reduces its rotational inertia. They are face-to-face, and what target does Megaraptor namunhuaiquii have in reach? The skull. As it is common knowledge (seriously, you should know that), the ramming behaviour makes its skull more resistent, as it needs to be in order to not get wrecked while ramming. I can't really see any majour advantages EITHER of them have over eachother. This is very close, and I would suggest also to stop underrating Carnotaurus sastrei's biteforce, seeing as even the much smaller dromaeosaurid, Deinonychus antirrhopus, has a biteforce comparable to that of an american alligator of similar size. i have no idea why you are bringing up deinonychus here, it has a completely different kind of skull from that of carnotaurus and rather has a proportionally much stronger bite. and no they are not at mass parity. carnotaurus was below 2 tons (like what mechabaryonyx showed) while megaraptor could have been more than 2 tons being allosaurus-sized and all. yes carnotaurus is not just going to stand there and let itself get killed but megaraptor could rather just rush in and bite the neck quickly, still i do not see why it would need to outflank carno to attack the neck. and biting carnotaurus on the face wouldn't really be too much of a problem either, it could easily tear its face up with those razor sharp teeth. megaraptor does have some good advantages, it has a much deadlier bite and has huge claws.
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